How Do UK PhDs Outside Oxbridge Fare on the US Market?

A prospective PhD student writes:

I was wondering if you would mind posting on your blog the question of how a UK phd (not from Oxford or Cambridge) can expect to compete on the US job market compared to how they would compete with a phd from a US department?

In my particular case I have an offer from [a top 20 US department] and one from [a top fivish UK department]. Though [the US department] looks like a great program, I was inclined towards [the UK department]  given its somewhat better ranking and better faculty for what I do. However, I'm looking to move back to the US to work after the Phd and so am asking people whether they think I would do better (ceteris paribus)on the US jbo market with a Phd from [the UK department or the US department]. One professor I asked said that he thought I would do better with [the US department] simply because many people on US hiring committees are unfamiliar (compared to their familiarity with US programs) with the strengths /weaknesses of Phd programs outside of Oxbridge in the UK and so would prefer the US Phd. Is this really the widely held view?

Post only once; signed comments strongly preferred, as usual.

 

Comments

[harry b]

Here's a guess. The phenomenon described is irrelevant for top notch US research departments, who have confidence in their own ability to get the right person, and to persuade Deans that they are right. But in less good departments, especially where teaching is the central mission, you're more likely to have trouble. If you apply for jobs in the US, flag somehow that you won't need a green card/visa. Finally, an irrelevant piece of advice -- I tink good US departments provide a much better and more rounded preparation for the profession than do equally good UK departments (seminars provide breadth and depth, and exposure to a wider range of philosophical approaches and habits of mind).

[Mohan Matthen]

Your question is about credibility after you have finished up -- how good you will look on paper. Where you get your PhD is clearly one important factor that makes for credibility. And from this point of view, the top twenty US department would be better, if the US is where you want to end up teaching.

But you have to think of your intellectual well-being as well. Indeed, putting it this way inverts what ought to be your priority. (Just think what Socrates would have said!) Assuming that you are right about where your intellectual interests lie, you would be better off going to the UK school. But if you do this, you should from the very start make sure that you do the right things to make your cv and yourself presentable. Keep up with the latest literature in your field. Write to people who have recently published articles of interest in your field with comments and questions. Work towards a couple of solid publications in the year before you are on the market. Make yourself known to philosophers in your field, but don't pester them with queries that make them doubt your depth of preparation. Figure that one or two letters from outside your school will strengthen your dossier.

[Ulrich Meyer]

I don't think it is just a question of search committees being unfamiliar with some UK departments. By doing your PhD in the UK, you would also get no experience teaching American undergraduates. You might of course have UK teaching experience, but both the classroom dynamics and the expectations for faculty-student interaction tend to be quite different. This will put you at a disadvantage if you apply to universities that pride themselves on the quality of their undergraduate education (e.g., liberal arts colleges). The last thing your future colleagues would want to worry about is the quality of *your* teaching. As long as there are plenty of good applicants from the top 20 US programs to go around (and there are), why take a risk? All of this will be less of an issue at big research universities, where they tend to care far less about their undergraduates. But they in turn might care more about where precisely you got your UK PhD from.

[peter kirwan]

I'm the the prospective grad student who wrote the original post.

two quick FYI's.

1) I'm originally from the UK so would need a green card anyway

2) I have two years teaching experience at a state university in the US (I TA'd through my masters)

thanks for your thoughts so far

[Robert Northcott]

As someone with a non-Oxbridge British PhD who had some success on the American market, three other remarks in addition to those above:

1) As I understand it, British universities currently must get all graduate students out within four years, on pain of punishment regarding future state funding. That is, you’ll have to complete your PhD in four years, or three if you do a one-year Masters degree there first. (Those in the UK may correct me on this, if I am wrong.) This means a strong chance of being forced onto the market prematurely, relative to contemporary American expectations of philosophy job candidates.

2) Traditionally, UK PhD programs did not have anything like the same extensive range of course requirements in the first two years that American ones do, which likely hurts subsequent employability, not to mention philosophical accomplishment. I have the impression there may have been some improvement in recent years though, despite point 1 above. (Again, others will be more up to date than me.)

3) For almost all jobs and candidates, a candidate’s chances are greatly influenced by departmental know-how and advice regarding the US market. I have in mind particularly training and preparation for interviews, and that letters are punchy enough. Other factors include being channelled into a marketable PhD topic, suitable levels of activity during the PhD (some already mentioned by other posters, e.g. papers, conference presentations), presentation of CV and other elements of your paper application package, knowledge of the APA conference set-up, and a thousand other small details that add up. I don’t think many beginning graduate students appreciate just how important all this will be to their eventual marketability, especially the letters and interview prep. Anyway, both American and British departments vary considerably in how good they are about this, but I certainly think it’s true that American ones prepare you better, at least for the American market. But any further relevant information about specific departments, e.g. their recent placement records, is certainly useful.

In my own case, I was grandfathered out of point 1, and was very lucky to spend two years at the end of my studies visiting a leading US department, which took care of points 2 and 3. Without those breaks, I think I would have stood very little chance of getting any US job.

[D]

I'm in a similar but importantly different position to Brian's correspondent, so I'd like to pose another question: If I have to choose between Oxford and a top 10 US program that's considerably weaker in my areas of interest, but which offers a much better funding package and, as Ulrich notes, US teaching experience, how should I decide?

[peter kwo]

This is from the comments section on the Philosophy Job Market Blog:

"Regarding international schools. I am currently an american in a 1 year M.A. program in the U.K. in order to bolster my application for PhD programs state-side."

"If you plan on retunring to the states to work I would suggest you not come to the U.K. for your PhD (I don't know anything about the more rigorous DPhil so I can't speak to that). Here's how the system works, at least at my school which I think is different than Oxford and Cambridge, but I assume similar to the other departments. The PhD is a 3 year program. PhD students must audit 1course per term (2 per year) but do not have to do any work for these classes. PhD students at my department have no formal teaching requirement, they are encouraged to, but no one cares if they don't. There's also nothing like the comprehensive exams which are commonplace in the states. No Language requirements, no logic requirement etc. Its all just the siddertation (which they call a thesis over here)."

"So basically what all this means is that the PhD over here makes you an expert in your Deissertation field, but unless you do tons of work on your own (which you don't have much time for becuase it's only three years) you really don't have any other expertise. Combine this with the lack of a requirement for teaching and it seems to me like U.K. students, unless they are super-studs (or get a DPhil instead of a PhD, something not offered at most of the schools) really have no chance of getting a job in the U.S. market."

"Additionally, schools have 0 funding for their students. The top U.K. and EU students can obtain AHRC funding (government funding), but even that is quite limited and, as far as I know is not generally available to U.S. students. So on top of what seems to be a lack of preparation for actually being a professional philosopher, you just don't get the funding you do in the states."

"I'm not at a lowly department either, I'm at a very well respected school, with a large program. Its just a different system, that is not all that compatible with the U.S. market demands. Unless I planned to live and work in the U.K. I would never in my wildest dreams even consider doing my PhD over here. There are a couple of Americans, and I really have no idea what they are thinking."

"Not to say the schools over here are no good. I love my school, and I think for a terminal M.A. coming to the U.K. is a great idea. Its only 1 year and, if you do well, you can get some really impressive letters of recommendation. Every department over here (except maybe oxbridge) has a terminal M.A. program (M.A. is never part of the PhD as far as I know so you get access to some of the top philosophers in the country. Though it is pricey. I have a huge FAFSA loan for this year to cover tuition housing and living. But hopefully I'll get full funding back state side and so won't have to borrow too much more."

"So overall if you plan on returning to America, M.A.= great idea, PhD horrible idea (in my opinion). Maybe there are some U.K. professors out there who know a little bit more about the system than I do. Maybe my inoformation speaks only to my department but its been my impression that this is a pretty standard way of doing it over here."

http://philosophyjobmarket.blogspot.com/2008/02/another-day-to-wake-up-on-feed-kill.html?showComment=1203875340000#c7149338132641544419

Hope it helps.

[Ofra]

Robert, I think what you say in (1) isn't quite accurate. As far as I understand the AHRC (British state funding) requires students to complete their PhDs in 4 years *not including* their Masters degree.

This means that students can study for a two year Masters degree followed by a 4-year PhD - which leaves them 6 years in grad school all together. (And remember that this requirement only applies to British or European AHRC funded students).

[Colin Farrelly]

I did my PhD in the UK, in a top-10ish philosophy dept. I then taught in the UK for 4 years, initially in philosophy and then I switched to political science, before returning to my country of origin (Canada).

Just some general reflections on the issue of grad students considering what country to do their PhD in and how this translates into job prospects down the line...

While I can understand the desire to try to get an accurate sense of how the country of origin of a PhD translates into job prospects in different countries, I think it is a mistake for a prospective PhD student to invest too much in such a consideration.

Studying abroad can be enormously beneficial to one’s intellectual development (as well as personal growth more generally). And so the question to ask is really: “Will studying abroad make me a better teacher and scholar?”. If the answer is “yes” then go.

With respect to those who are committed to living in a particular country after they finish their PhD, I say see how you feel a few years down the road. Maybe you will meet the love of your life in the country you do your PhD in and you will be happy to settle there! Maybe you will land a great job in that country and that appointment could help position you to make a lateral move (a few years later) to the country you really aspire to live in.

Furthermore, given how hard it is to land a permanent academic appointment in philosophy, ask yourself if any old job in your preferred country is better than any job in the other country. A country like the US is a big place, and would one really prefer to be based in *any* US philosophy dept and city than any place in the UK? One might think so before they move abroad but once one actually lives abroad for a few years (and experiences new people, places, etc.) things might change significantly.

I recall an undergrad prof I had in my second year who said: “If you ever get the chance to study in another country take it!”. His advice has served me well. Yet I recognize that the spirit of his advice requires one to be a bit (more) of a risk-taker and to see one’s education as a real transformative experience. But in the big picture of things, the decision to try to make a living as a philosopher is itself a huge career gamble; and so the desire to take the “safest route” of the options available needs to be grounded in the reality that the odds of landing a good job in a particular city or even state is extremely small to start with (regardless of the options one pursues).

Cheers,
Colin

[Anders]

The comment taken from the Philosophy Job Market blog seems highly tendentious (if not just spurious) in its description of the differences between the UK and the US programs.

I strongly suggest that the original poster reads the subsequent posts in that particular thread, i.e. the response by 'UK Prof' for a less biased perspective.

[Brian Leiter]

I want to concur with Anders. The cost of the anonymity of posts at the Phil Job Market Blog is that a lot of nonsense and misinformation gets posted there.

[michael o'neill]

just to agree, the post copied from the job market blog is absurd; no one considering studying in the UK should take that post seriously, and if possible it should just be removed.
Thanks to Colin though for some helpful thoughts on the topic!

[Ross Cameron]

I agree with the above suggestions against not placing much weight on the anonymous comment from Phil Job Market Blog.

My advice would be to simply choose the place that had the most good people in your area who are going to be around. If the UK dept has the better faculty for what you want to do, go there. It'd be a good idea, if you want to end up back in the US, to try and make contacts there while you're in grad school, and to attend US conferences etc - actually, that's a good either even if you didn't want to work in the US. But if you come out of a good UK program with a strong record and good letters from good people, you should be just fine. People I've known with PhDs from good UK depts who have hit the US market have had a pretty good success rate.

It's true that most UK PhD programs won't force you to cover as broad a syllabus. But of course, no one's going to *stop* you - you just have to be self-motivated. Provided there're enough grad seminars, reading groups, interesting people to talk to etc - and if it's a good program there will be - you're going to have every chance for philosophical development. It's just that it's going to be up to you to take advantage of it.

[Ross Cameron]

That should have been 'good idea' and not 'good either' of course.

[Alastair Norcross]

Since the original question was specifically about job prospects in the US for those with UK PhDs, it might be helpful to relate my experience from the hiring side. The prime concern I have heard voiced during search committee meetings regarding candidates with UK doctorates (which includes Oxford and Cambridge) has been narrowness. This has been primarily with respect to teaching prospects, but a little with respect to philosophical collegiality too. I taught for ten years in a good department with no graduate program, but a pronounced emphasis on research. Then I taught for five years at a pretty good PhD program, before moving this year to a better PhD program. I have been involved in at least ten job searches over the last fifteen years.

The concern with narrowness was most pronounced at the undergraduate institution. Even though tenure was mostly decided on research, teaching was a significant necessary condition. We were also interested in hiring colleagues who might know something about what we did, even though it wasn't their specialty. The department was fairly small (8 permanent members), and very collegial. We all read each others' work, and benefited from the feedback we got from each other. In 7 searches, the only UK PhD we interviewed was someone who had spent a year visiting at a US PhD program, taking courses and getting rave reviews from the faculty there. That applicants were from a UK PhD program was a definite concern that counted against them in discussions regarding whom to interview. Every year we had several hundred applications for what was a pretty attractive job (2-2 teaching load and no graduate advising, so in some respects better than a PhD program). With so many smart philosophers to choose from, we could afford to be concerned about breadth too.

At my previous PhD program, the concern with narrowness of UK PhDs was still there, but much less pronounced. Teaching was still important, but that also led to worries about certain US programs that don't provide much in the way of teaching experience.

From my experience, then, I would say that it's quite likely that coming from a UK program will be a drawback on the US job market, but how much of a drawback will vary from job to job.

My own decision to do a PhD in the US, as opposed to the UK, where I got my BA, was mostly driven by concerns over the narrowness of UK programs. In my own case, I wasn't thinking about job prospects (I didn't think that far ahead in my early twenties), but rather about the desirability of getting a broad philosophical education. I simply wanted to learn a lot more philosophy before writing a book-length treatise on a fairly narrow topic. I know you can always learn philosophy on your own, but how many students really do that?

[Andrew Goldfinch]

I’m an MPhil graduate student at Cambridge and recently had to decide whether to stay at Cambridge for my PhD or return to my undergraduate alma mater of LSE. Given my PhD research interests (evolutionary perspectives and explanations of social phenomena), I decided to return to the LSE. At no point in my decision-making process did I consider a PhD in philosophy from the LSE as anyway less ‘marketable’ than one from Cambridge. Of course, this is under the assumption that members of selection committees in the USA know of the strength of the LSE philosophy department, an assumption which I think is rather safe to make.

[ARH]

I'm in a similar position, only for English. I've been accepted to Oxford directly to the DPhil to begin a dissertation. I have two MAs from American institutions, and if I pursue my PhD at an American institution, I will undoubtedly have to go through the motions of taking more MA-level courses before I can start on a dissertation. Oxford is more efficient for me because I can spend a shorter but more intensive amount of time writing the dissertation, and ultimately earn my doctorate more quickly. The downside is that schools will be skeptical about my teaching experience when I enter the American job market. Here is a list of pros and cons for taking a doctoral degree abroad, from my perspective, that may be helpful for your decision:

Cons:
1) Funding issues.
2) American hiring committees will often question whether you've had enough coursework, particularly in a seminar environment (this is not so much a problem for me, because I've had almost too much coursework already in the American system).
3) They will also question your teaching experience and your preparedness to teach a room full of 50 semi-interested, semiconcious American students.
4) As was said before, they will worry about narrowness; and this is in part a function of the worries about adequate coursework. Also, the UK dissertation is quite often more focused than its American counterpart.
5) This is a less tangible issue, but there is a bit of bad blood between top UK and top American institutions. This is the case because it remains difficult to make the transition across the Atlantic for graduates of Harvard and Oxford alike.

Pros (answering the cons directly):
1) There is no pro to funding. It's rough.
2) If you make an effort to cover your bases in coursework, even if it means going beyond your requirments, it can help.
3) Go after the few teaching opportunities that arise, and consider spending a year of your graduate tenure at an American program. Also, some places, like Oxford, offer opportunities to teach seminars of study-abroad students, many of whom tend to be Americans. These kinds of things can bolster your CV; and with an eye on your CV, you can demonstrate competence and help to alleviate concerns about teaching experience.
4) The UK dissertation may be more narrow, but you also have *some* agency in determining the course of your project. Another major pro that comes out of this: UK dissertations are often more polished and publishable than American ones. If you publish your dissertation, you're a step ahead rather than a step behind. Many from American programs get hired on the potential of their dissertations as publishable projects. You may actually have an advantage in this dept. with a more polished dissertation.
5) There are horror stories from everyone on the extremely difficult American job market. Having the UK doctorate will raise concerns, but if you anticipate why hiring committees will have those concerns, you should be in good shape. I've also been advised, as a U.S. national educated primarily in the U.S., that I should solicit recommendations from my American advisors in addition to my Oxford advisor once I'm on the market.

I hope this is helpful. I'm leaning toward the UK degree right now, so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt.

[CJB]

I got my PhD from a top UK university (non-Oxbridge) and got a job in the US on my first try. I am not saying that that is typical or even expected; all I am saying is that it does actually happen. Having said that, I would also say that PhD programs in the UK are not for everyone. In my experience, having a UK PhD did not raise any concerns, rather many people find it interesting and exciting that you got to study and live in the UK. No one has ever suggested to me that my PhD was worth less until I read these comments. In response to the many negative comments, all I can say is: I have a job.

The reason why PhD programs in the UK are different is, I suspect, mainly historical. Until about the 1970s, it was typical for British graduates to not bother getting a PhD at all. Rather they would get an MPhil, then go teach for a few years, and then get offered a PhD from whatever university they were teaching in as recognition for their years of research activity. This was the case with a few of my supervisors. UK universities started emphasizing their PhD programs because the PhD was increasingly becoming a necessary credential to have to work in the US. So, they started offering PhDs, but often didn’t bother to change their programs very much (I suspect).

PhD programs in philosophy in the UK are primarily focused on research, and therefore on training their candidates to be successful researchers. There is more pressure in UK universities to give conference papers and publish than there is on teaching. Also, UK universities emphasize an independent, self-motivated work ethic—they will not hold your hand. If you need someone to motivate you, set you arbitrary goals and reward you with good grades on your transcripts, then don’t go to a UK university. If you are highly motivated and want to do some serious research without having to get bogged down in the duties of a teaching assistant, then a UK university would suit you fine. I have seen American students fail in the UK because they are not use to the unstructured program. Though, I have also seen American students flourish, when they are highly motivated and capable of independent work.

There are pros and cons to every philosophy department’s program. Here are two points against PhD programs in the UK generally:
(1) It is true that UK universities do not have the extensive course requirements that US universities do. What this really means in terms of the job market is that your dossier will not have a really padded out set of transcripts like the American candidates will. But, while opinion may differ here, I can’t honestly say that this matters much. No one is going to give you a job because you got an A in Ethics. Having served on a hiring committee in the US, I can honestly say that I don’t really look at a job candidate’s transcripts unless they really have nothing else to show for themselves—if a candidate has no publications, conference papers or teaching experience, then I look at the transcripts (however, by that point, I’ve probably lost interest in the candidate anyway). So I don’t see what all the worry over transcripts is about.

(2) It is true that UK universities do not pressure their PhD candidates to do a lot of teaching. This is a more serious worry I believe than (1), because when you get to the job market, the American candidates may have a list of courses that they have already taught, complete with very detailed syllabi. There are a few ways to remedy this in the UK: first, insist on doing some teaching. Most UK universities use their PhD students to offer tutoring, which is a fundamental part of the undergraduate curriculum. So there will usually be much opportunity for that. Second, I did notice that you will have much more teaching opportunities in the UK if you are working in a more marginalized field. At my university, there were very few PhD students working on political philosophy or aesthetics, so the students who specialized in those areas had loads of teaching to choose from. Finally, many PhD candidates in the UK just assume that they will spend the first year or two out of their program doing teaching fellowships, which is where you do gain the teaching experience. That is rather common. British students typically do not expect to gain much teaching experience during their PhD program, rather they expect to get their experience once they’ve finished the PhD.

Here is something in favor of PhD programs in the UK:
Relatively speaking, the UK is a small country with an awful lot of philosophical activity going on. It is extraordinarily easy to get involved in going to conferences, organizing a conference and meeting loads of other people interested in your field (and potentially meeting loads of well-respected philosophers who might be interested in your work and therefore write you a great reference). I found that there were plenty of opportunities for me to get involved in philosophical societies in the UK, which in my case gave me the contacts to get good references, which (I believe) is what got me my job.

If all you want is to get a job in the US, then go to a US university—they are like factories that will mold you into the appropriate shape so that you will be a suitable candidate for any teaching university. However, if you want to be a good philosopher, then you go to the university that would best serve your academic needs. If you end up going to a university that doesn’t inspire you to do your best, then you’re not going to publish many papers, are you? Ultimately, if you’ve got good references and some publications, that will matter an awful lot. This can be done in a UK PhD program, in fact it happens every day. Having said that, I will stipulate that you really must be a well-motivated student who can work independently and be willing to go look for opportunities to get involved. They are out there, but no one is going to invite you out of the blue. Alternatively, if you want to play it safe and get good transcripts and loads of teaching experience from your PhD program, then get use to the idea of teaching in a community college, because there is no guarantee that a US PhD is going to get you a job either.

[peter kirwan]

The OP here again

so it seems to me like a lot of the problems can be overcome by doing a masters in the US first (which I have done). This gives you two years of teaching experience and a wide range of courses on your transcript.